Why Engineers Struggle with Confidence and Speaking Up At Work | Improving Your Confidence
If you're an engineer who struggles with confidence, imposter syndrome, speaking up in meetings, or setting boundaries with your boss, then there's a good chance you're looking in the wrong place for the solution...
John Chao is a perspective coach with an HR background working in global aerospace engineering companies, and in this video, he shares his best insights for why so many engineers struggle with this, how it impacts your career, you can do to improve in these areas.
Stay tuned.
What Causes Imposter Syndrome?
Doug Howard: Hey everybody. I'm here with John Chao today. I met John recently, uh, through a LinkedIn engagement community that we're both in, and we set up a coffee chat and all of a sudden we're having this really interesting conversation about engineering and engineers energy in the workplace. And I told 'em, Hey, we gotta stop and record this because this is super fascinating and all of my audience is engineers and they're gonna want to hear this stuff.
I don't even know where this conversation is going today, uh, but I'm excited to find out. But before we get much further, um, John, how about you introduce yourself to the audience? Just kinda let everyone know who you are, what do you do? And you know, I know you're not, you know, in engineering today, but you have a background that's related to engineering.
So if you can kind of just explain that before we get too far.
John Chao: Yeah. I want to start. When we're in the middle of a juicy conversation, you just know that it needs to be shared with other people. So I appreciate both of us having the, uh, discernment to be able to say, Hey, let's pause this and record this for the betterment of the people that we're really in community with, which is really, really good.
Uh, so as Doug mentioned, my name is John. Um, I have an HR background that moved into a lot of sales and in the fashion industry as well. Um, but I really, my roots started off in HR in an aerospace engineering company. Um, and I was there for a while seeing the ups and downs of the cycles of HR. And also what that company was going through. Uh, it's a global aerospace engineering company that really went through a lot of different things while I was there and I was able to look at things both from the manufacturing side, but also from the engineer side. Um, and it really gave me a perspective of what happens behind the scenes and also the dynamics that are happened between obviously men and women in the engineering world, as well as everything related to the career path of engineers, um, which was really, really cool to be able to see.
So I'm glad to be able to be here today and have this conversation. Predominantly, I work as a coach and I help people with their perspective because typically when we feel stuck, when we feel like we don't know what to do next is because our perspective is off and we're not seeing things the right way.
And usually we're not very good at seeing ourselves very clearly. So I usually say that the mirror that we see ourself with is kind of like the clown houses where it's all warped and we're not really seeing ourselves very clearly. Therefore, our self-image is not very clear. So if we struggle with self-confidence that we self struggle with the narrative of what we do have with ourselves, or if we speak to ourselves much more negatively than we would ever speak to a loved one, then all of these things are related to our perspective. And that's predominantly what I coached in.
I've gone into masculinity coaching, and it's been a fascinating world for me to really discover because I came with a lot of feminine energy. And that's not a bad thing per se. We have both masculine and feminine energy, but knowing how to excavate the things that are in the way of our masculinity because of the conditioning that we've been given our whole lives is super crucial for us as men, um, because that's our path as, uh, we go on in life.
Doug Howard: That was a very fascinating response, uh, introduction, I should say, and a lot to unpack there. I've had like a dozen questions in my head, so I guess I'll start with, you know, a lot of engineers struggle with imposter syndrome and confidence and early in your career, right out college, that's gonna be a thing.
You know, you just, you haven't been in the real world yet, but, you know, I found that it kind of stays with engineers, you know, it does, it doesn't really stop. It just kind of moves, it kinda changes it, the bar raises and no one ever really feels content. You know, and you're talking about perspective and you know, that inner critic, that negative self-talk we're harder on ourself.
So I guess what, what, what thoughts do you have on imposter syndrome and confidence? I'm a layman, so you know, you have to dumb it down for me.
John Chao: Sure.
Doug Howard: What causes it? What is it? What's going on there? How do you, how do you overcome that?
John Chao: Well, I think a lot of people don't, and actually I'm thinking about this now, so this is a new illustration that I literally just came up with now from everything else that I've been doing with coaching, and hopefully I'll use it in a different way.
But yeah, this is, you know, headlines first, you know, first, uh, you're the first to hear it. Imposter syndrome is like a seesaw, and on the other side it's on one side. The other side is relevance. So especially, and I've seen this in engineering world, you either have the people who are starting off, they have imposter syndrome because there isn't enough experience to really see things happen.
So when you're designing something, when you're in the process of innovation, usually the people with years of experience can say, oh, I know where this is gonna go. Let me catch this, or let me switch lanes before this happens. But those who are up and coming don't have that experience, so they have to basically learn or they learn through the mentorship of another person.
Because of that and because of the innovative background of, or the innovative nature of engineering, there's gonna be a lot of unknowns. There's gonna be a lot of things that are, uh, experimental, let's say. Yeah. And so it constantly puts a person in imposter syndrome because they don't have the faintest idea whether it's gonna work or not.
And especially lacking the life experience or the experience of engineering, to be able to see that, oh, I could have, you know, had more experience and had I had more experience, I would have probably, uh, not tried this test because I just know that these three things are gonna make it not work, but I don't have the experience, so I have to learn it myself.
So the imposter syndrome causes that to be very real, to feel that way, to feel very insecure because you just don't know. And that's totally okay. The really cool side is,
Doug Howard: Well before you continue, I guess. No, no, don't be sorry. I'm sorry I interrupted you. But you said to feel real. So like, so you're saying that it's not real?
Like what do you mean by that?
John Chao: So, um, I mean, I'll talk about this from the perspective of, uh, entrepreneurship. I made a post a couple of months ago about how, on LinkedIn, about how experienced entrepreneurs and first time entrepreneurs are both making things up as they go. The only difference is that an experienced entrepreneur knows that they can pull it off.
That's really the only difference because an experienced entrepreneur, we're all trying new things for the very first time. Even Jeffrey Bezos is trying for first things for the new time.
Doug Howard: Sure. Yeah.
John Chao: He has no idea whether the next thing he launches is gonna work or not. It's all just making things up.
The only difference is he's pulled off so many things in the past that now he has confidence that he can pull off a new thing.
Doug Howard: Yeah. That, you know, I, um, you know, some advice I, I got earlier in my career was, you know, if you want to accelerate your learning, fail hard and fail fast, you know, um, and fall harder, you know? Cause then you'll get up, you'll learn, you'll go and you'll get over failure. Yeah. And I feel like that's kinda related to what you're saying. You know, Jeff Bezos probably didn't hit a home run. Not that I'm like a Jeff Bezos, you know, cheerleader or anything.
John Chao: Sure me neither, I'm just using that as an example. Yeah.
Doug Howard: Tons of success. You can't, tons, tons of success. You can't argue with that. But I'm sure he's failed at many things. I'm sure he is, you know, failed miserably, lost money and whatnot. But he probably has gotten over that fear and it's helped him kind of overcome these things.
Correct. Which is why imposter syndrome is a feeling.
And I'm not saying that feelings aren't real, but I'm saying that we need to recognize feelings as feelings and not reality. Because the reality is everybody goes through the same process. Nobody really knows what they're doing. It's just whether they have enough self-confidence to know that they can pull it off or they can, you know, have a perceived confidence more than the average other person.
And so it's all about perception, but the realness of the feeling is always gonna be there. But then that makes it really complicated because you're either gonna, so, but the benefit of that is that whoever is in this spot of the seesaw of the imposter syndrome, they also have way more ability to be innovative.
Because a lot of the times the people with a lot of experience, they'll write things off automatically in their head because they think they know better. But what if actually a, a, like a really interesting combination of things happen and something gets discovered because of the risk taking or the novice-ness of the person trying this new thing for the very first time.
It's how a lot of medicine has gone invented. It's how a lot of technology has gone invented. It's really cool. So the, the, there's pros and cons of being on this side of the, um, imposter syndrome.
Now, the other side of it, if we were to the, the, the seesaw is relevance. So you have somebody who's very, very experienced in what they're doing. You have these high senior engineers that just knows an engine inside and out and all this other stuff, but they may not have the relevance of what is really happening in innovation today. And their ability to keep up with that is just not there because there's so much solidified in them already.
Yeah. It's almost like an anger. It's almost like, uh, yeah, it's, you're, you're tethered to something and it's hard to be flexible. Does that count what you're saying?
John Chao: Yeah. Which is great. So guess what? A senior engineer will have zero imposter syndrome because they know that piece of thing inside and out. That's why they don't have imposter syndrome. But the thing is, if you want to be malleable and change something and look at it from a very different point of view, they may not be able to do that because the, they've framed their mind that way.
And there's a pro and a con to that as well. You can feel very secure, like you know it all. But then the downside is there's either blind spots that we have that we don't get to see, or there's a lack of relevance, which is also not great either.
Doug Howard: You know, that that's, that gives me a different, I guess, your perspective coach. So this makes sense. But this, you, you saying that gave me a different perspective on something that I've noticed in engineering. And, uh, if you're new to the channel, if this is the first episode you're watching, uh, in, you know, if you don't know my background, I was an engineering manager for many years, uh, built a five person department of 40 people.
And, you know, so I've worked with many engineers is my point. One trend I've noticed, you know, I entered the workforce in 2008. Uh, you know, lots changed in engineering over that, you know, 15 year period. And, you know, when I came aboard, it was kind of the tail end of this pre-automation era.
I mean, there was automation and technology, but nothing like what we see today before, kind of 2008, with robotics and artificial intelligence and, and, and things like that. And when I was hired, you know, the guru was the most important and critical role in person in the company. The guru could do no wrong. You know, the guru I'm talking about, like the technical expert, you know, on your, on your product, what, whatever. You know, if you design bridges at your company and you got the guy that knows how to do bridges in high seismic zones under, you know, all these, the guru, there's every company had a, a guru or a set of gurus who had the answers to everything.
And that person could do no wrong. That person could be a jerk, and the company just dealt with it because we can't live without a guru. And what I've found though, is over that 15 year timeframe, you know, like the guru isn't as valuable as they used to be. The guru kind of got left behind. The guru, they had such a deep foundation of skills rooted in something very specific. And then now thanks to, you know, the information age, and it's just a lot easier to learn something new, get up to speed. There's a lot more people who are jack of all trades. You know, all these kind of things make the guru less valuable because the guru can't move. The guru isn't nimble. He can't take this unique expertise and pivot it over here really quickly.
And then on top of that, tell me what you think about this, John. This is the new insight I've had of what I'm about to say. The guru is almost emotionally biased to his expertise.
It's like he's spent 20 years, be 30 years, whatever, becoming an expert in this specific thing. And now the market is telling you, it's not as valuable. But you know, you, you take that personally, it's part of you. It's so, it's, it's almost makes it worse, right?
John Chao: Very much so. And so maybe I would say the goal actually is to get very, very comfortable with imposter syndrome.
To have that for the rest of our lives because it means that we're constantly learning things. We're constantly putting ourselves in new environments where we don't know something. We're constantly the junior person, but we're expanding ourselves all the time and we're relevant to everything all the time.
And that allows us to be able to be at the forefront of everything instead of risking ever being irrelevant, which in the engineering world, I think is a very scary thing to be in.
Doug Howard: I agree. You know, it, it, it doesn't go away. It's, it's a real thing for engineers, so it's, it's best to get comfortable with it. What's your best advice for getting comfortable with being uncomfortable?
John Chao: Being okay saying that, I don't know, but I'm gonna figure it. And I think the issue is that we have so much ego.
We wanna be the person who raises their hand and be like, I know what to do. You know? And we feel we wanna be the person in the room who is so confident, but what if you are the person in the room who's the, the most innovative, or the quickest, or the most willing to fail hard? And you are also then known to be the person who gives feedback about what you failed at, so you can help other people.
And I, I really believe that engineering is a collaborative effort, not an individual thing.
Doug Howard: Oh, absolutely.
John Chao: There's, there's almost so much competition among engineers of who's gonna get the next promotion. And so there's way more competition than collaboration, which is such a waste of a work experience. But what if we don't realize that the people above us who want to really promote, they want to promote the person who gives the most value, not from selfish production, but from collaborative insight.
So if you can be the person that helps everybody in the team grow, Then automatically you're putting yourself in a leadership position where you'll be seen as somebody who is the leader. They can imagine what your, what the team is gonna be like, a team is gonna be like, under your leadership because you're already embodying it by being the person who brings people together.
By being the person who increases communication among everybody, by being the person who helps, people wanna share their notes, and now I wanna hide their own findings. And all of these things are the betterment.
If your department then can be that much stronger than all the other departments because you fostered this culture, then that automatically makes you super promotable.
Importance of Perspective in Engineering
Doug Howard: Well, it's funny you say that because that's kind of the path I had. You know, I wasn't naturally the best engineer. I was like an average student in college. I entered the workforce with average engineering skills, huge imposter syndrome, but I've always had a passion for people and helping people, so it wasn't like, by strategy for me, it was more just me doing what I did. But if I saw someone with a problem, I wanted to help, even if I didn't know the solution, but how could I, you know, can I take something off your plate? Or I was very inquisitive. I'd ask questions and whatnot.
And then before you know it, I'm the defacto leader in the department. I'm the person that's being pe people are now going to me instead of our boss for questions and support. And what do you think about this? And, uh, so it's funny you say that because I, I definitely can relate to the correlation between what you're saying and that being a path to get you towards success more so than technical skills or being the expert or having all the answers.
John Chao: Well, and this is where perspective is so important in engineering. If you have different people with different perspective, all able to have psychological safety and then share with each other, then you can eliminate a lot of the trials that you'll need to do because this person has a perspective that will weigh in on a failure that's already going to happen.
And the whole thing is being able to create that kind of psychological safety for this kind of collaboration. Because as many perspectives as possible will allow for there to be as little trials as needed for the success of an end project. That's why the different people have been brought onto the team.
But if we're all in silos and we're all trying to work towards something and then bringing something together that doesn't really work.
Working in Silos
Doug Howard: Now it's funny you say that, John, about working in silos and kind of like this competitive environment. I was just speaking with someone the other day and I was telling 'em how kind of like engineering has become almost like the new Wall Street in a sense. If you imagine what your just perception of Wall Street, you know, you picture cutthroat, trades going on and people stealing money from each other, you know, at the top level and whatnot. You just cutthroat. There's no friends. Survival of the fittest.
And you know, from what I'm hearing from a lot of people in engineering and from what I've seen in my career, you know, it's kinda like that in engineering now where it's like I don't wanna share my insight with the person next to me, cuz that might help them get ahead of me. I got this expertise, I got this knowledge, I wanna keep it to myself. And I think that's part of what's causing so many, like, people to work in silos in engineering. You don't wanna really share that, that knowledge. You're worried about someone surpassing you. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that, John.
John Chao: I, uh, read this analogy in a book, um, about masculinity. I actually don't really like it that much, so I'm not gonna tell you what the name of the book is, but I thought at this point was really interesting. Um, and the reason why I don't like the book is he comes from it from a very feminine point.
Um, and I don't think that there, he addressed masculinity or redefining masculinity very well, but he brought up this point about a misnomer with the idea of the lone wolf and even the wolf pack and, and the alphas. It doesn't actually work the way that we think because there is no such thing as the lone wolf or even an alpha in the wolf pack.
There's typically actually a dual. So it's a dual leader. Um, and also in they hunt very communally. Any wolf that tries to hunt on their own, they're not gonna get, they're gonna exert way too much energy trying to get the prey, and they may not be able to really do it. The way that wolves work is they work together collectively and to be able to get food for everybody.
Even if we think about human beings and hunter gatherers, how many hunters actually hunted on their own and was successfully able to get their prey? Not very many, people worked together for that. And so this is an issue that is happening right now is that masculinity has been really misguided into thinking that there needs to be a lot more isolation when being in community with other men have always caused men to elevate together, and that is a really big problem because the more isolated men are, the less communication that they have, the less ability they get to really gather together with other men and the less of a cause they can really go for.
If we really think about it, who in history have really created the revolutions? It's the men who've gone together and are unhappy about something. And so in society today, they want to segregate men so that we can't come together and say we're not happy about something and be a force to create change.
Doug Howard: Now as I'm hearing you say that I have 15 years of corporate training and whatnot. Like I know if I said something like that in my company or something like that, you know, kinda probably get frowned upon. I'd be like scared to say it. So I guess, um, for, for anyone who would hear that with like, I guess maybe the wrong tone. Cause I know what you mean. I understand what you mean. How can we clarify what that means?
The Power of Community
John Chao: So let's switch it. Let's talk about the power of collaboration and the power of community. So if for example, in a company, if there is enough people who are so together and working together and desiring for something and creating results, then we can actually influence a little bit of the direction of the company.
Now, I understand engineering companies are very bureaucratic. There's a lot of red tape. There's a lot of things that make it very, very hard. But at the end of the day, when you have an entire team that's so productive, that's so dynamic, that's causing things to happen, then leadership is gonna look around.
At the end of the day, it's still a business. At the end of the day, there are still deliverables, at the end of the day some clients still prefer working with some people than others. So there's gonna be selfish intent from leadership to say, Hey, what are you guys doing? That is going so well that the others are not doing.
And then automatically you get the interests of leadership. You get their eyes, their attention, and there are way more opportunities for you to have influence in a positive way towards the direction of how you feel like things can be done, because you guys have piloted already in your team. Engineering is all about trials and tests and making sure that an a, a sample is able to be done before mass production gets done. So you as the team, you are doing that, you are the sample pilot of how an ideal team should operate.
Masculine vs Feminine Energy in the Workplace
Doug Howard: I guess now is probably a good time for me to point out for the audience here, this is the topic that, you know, where John and I were talking a few weeks ago and I was like, okay, we, we have to capture this and show it to everybody.
This idea of, are male engineers too feminine. That's a topic you brought up to me and I didn't have an answer. I didn't even really know what that meant and whatnot. So I was really fascinated by the question and it made me curious. So I guess, John, can you kind of explain what you mean by that, that question?
John Chao: Sure. And of course the definitions of masculinity and femininity can look very different. And so everybody who's watching this and hearing these terms, they have an emotional association towards these terms and that's very okay. So I would say in general, the, the traits of masculinity would be things like being able to have an original idea and speak up even though you feel like other people are gonna disagree with you.
Having the ability to be creative and adventurous and do things without worrying what other people are going to think.
And being able to have a bigger picture so that you're not just head in the borrows, you know, working on something, but having the ability to have the leadership of you come out and be able to see the bigger picture and how to bring people together.
These are kind of what I would say, uh, would be related to masculinity in this specific context with this conversation.
Doug Howard: And it sounds like the, the themes revolve around leadership, self-awareness, and confidence. Am I missing anything?
John Chao: No, and that's a lot of what genuine masculinity is. So we're not talking about who has the loudest voice and who's the most alpha in the room.
Because that doesn't actually mean anything. Real masculinity, genuine masculinity has a lot to do with being so in tune with who you are, being so aligned with who you are, being okay sticking out and speaking up and for the betterment of whatever is going on. How many of us have been in a team meeting where we know that we don't feel right about something, but we also didn't speak up because that was the thing to do.
And so I would say that is quite a non masculine reaction or response to it because a lot of the times, especially in engineering companies, we're just a, a cog in the wheel or we feel that way. And so we're just here to do the assignment that we were told to do. And sometimes they kind of want to keep people in their place.
And so a lot of things, a lot of times people don't speak up when things could have been spoken up and some issues wouldn't need to happen. But we all just kind of feel like we're going in the motions of things and it's not always safe to express ourselves.
Doug Howard: So just to kind of clarify that, you know, I, I think I know what you mean, but I wanna play devil's advocate, you know, are you saying to go in there like a bat outta hell? You know, you hear something you disagree with and then just start yelling at the top of your lungs, like, Tarzan, you know, this is not okay with me. What do you mean by standing up for yourself and showing leadership? If you mean leadership in the traditional sense, like, you know, then everyone has to follow. But I don't think you mean that, you know, so I guess if you wanna just clarify. .
John Chao: Everybody has an ability to have leadership. Uh, and this is where there's a beautiful thing with an ecosystem. In an ecosystem, everybody plays their role, but at the same time, they're taking leadership in playing that role within the ecosystem.
And so it's basically them feeling like they can be all that they can be. And that's really important in the ability to have the influence of each other in an ecosystem. And if we are in a position where we're feeling like we, we are, we have to be closed, we have to be small, then, uh, and we have to just play what our role in that way, then we're not living up to our fullest and we're not able to have the impact that we would have on the rest of the ecosystem, for the ecosystem to be as healthy as possible.
And a really, really cool thing about masculinity is that masculinity is strategic also conversation. So a lot of planning and strategy is a very masculine trait, except how often are there unruly, highly furious engineers who just don't know how to communicate and they yell and there's all these poor communication skills that's actually not very masculine.
A really masculine person would be able to come into a thing, know how to not escalate a situation, ask the right questions, communicate the right things, get the right results at the end of it, because that's what they're doing in their masculinity.
They're not freaking out like a child and just trying to be like, no, I'm right. That's the ego. So being egotistical and being masculine are two very different things. We're talking about masculinity here and not egotism.
The Ego Effect
Doug Howard: So that's a good point, can you elaborate more on ego? When I think ego, I think I'm cool. I think I'm smarter than everybody. But is that what you mean by ego?
John Chao: Sure. Ego is um, what we talked about earlier with imposter syndrome. Yeah. Ego is the, the person who wants to, I have, I have the question, I have the answer to the question and then look around with a smile on their face cuz they, they were the person who was able to respond and nobody else was able to and be like, I'm better than you.
It's almost a little child. An insecurity of the little child in them that wants to make sure that they are seen by everybody. They are liked by everybody, or they are dominant over everybody. Versus a very secure person who's okay fumbling and not knowing and making mistakes in front of other people cuz they know who they are and they know the value that they bring to the table.
So there's no need for ego because they don't really even care if other people don't see their value. They see their own value.
Doug Howard: Interesting. Interesting. So I guess another just example, you know, is, people that are afraid to ask a dumb question. People that are afraid to admit, they don't know. You're saying that's, that's ego as well in a sense?
John Chao: Well, there's been great examples of, uh, the NASA, um, rocket explosions of how engineers who don't speak up, who don't ask a question, and, um, having issues with, um, all these security related things. Not security, but like safety related things. That then, okay, a certain seal on a certain thing wasn't exactly right and somebody had an idea, but they weren't willing to ask the question cuz they didn't wanna seem dumb and then now a whole spaceship explodes.
Doug Howard: That just shows you the importance of this. Honestly, I never really thought about it that way, but, you know, I always kinda looked at it as something that held the individual engineer back. I wasn't really familiar with this masculine feminine concept, until speaking with you, but I looked at soft skills more as like a challenge and that being like a root cause thing that, would prevent people from being comfortable speaking up or, or taking more authority on something. But this kind of shows you that whatever the cause is, it's still a, it's a bigger problem than just the individual.
John Chao: Correct.
Doug Howard: It's not holding the individual back in their career. It's actually holding the industry back from innovation and it's also whatever industry it is. And it's also creating safety concerns potentially. You're not getting that same level of wisdom of a crowd checks and balances in the process. It becomes a flawed system if everyone doesn't speak up. Is that kind of what you're saying?
John Chao: Absolutely. And that's irony of it, is that we're all supposed to be a cog in the well oiled machine, except if we're not living to the fullest expression of who we are, and we are feeling small cause we're just playing our role where it says, being all of who we are, asking all the questions, being comfortable asking dumb things or, or making points that aren't necessarily right, but at least you were willing to say something and now as many angles are considered as possible and you're living to the fullest of your role.
Those two are very different. The playing your role as a small person and playing your role as your fullest self are two very different ways of being a cog in the machine, in the well oiled machine. Cuz at one point the well oiled machine is not gonna be very well oiled and something's gonna happen.
Doug Howard: No, it's inevitable. It's not just if it's when.
John Chao: Correct.
Doug Howard: So something that's been floating on in the back of my mind here as we're talking is, you know, speaking of statistics, you know, engineering is a highly male dominated industry, you know, just by the numbers.
So how do you think, I mean, you're kind of saying that you feel like feminine masculine energy, you know, male engineers having this lack of masculine energy or, or more feminine energy is, is, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I feel like that's what you're saying. You feel like that's kind of a cause of engineers not being comfortable speaking up, engineers not, you know, having a healthy leadership style and whatnot.
And I guess I'll just ask, if it's a male dominated industry, how do you think this has happened, with your experience in engineering environments?
Transactional vs Collaborative Communication
John Chao: So, I mean, the irony is I work in an engineering space in HR and so in HR, HR is a very feminine oriented or even feminine dominated industry.
So in HR there's a lot of conversation, maybe too much conversation about too many things, and there's just a lot of psychological safety. Sure. Yeah. Almost to that point. So, because that's the negative side of things, the positive side of things is that, that type of environment fosters great conversation.
And so, uh, what happens when we're in industries where there's an, an imbalance between men and women, not necessarily masculinity and femininity, but men and women, then there's going to be an imbalance of how things are done. And this is why I think within us, we need to have a really good balance of masculine and femininity energy as well, because men tend to be people who are side to side communicators.
Men like to sit next to the bar and watch TV with another man when they're talking about. Women tend to be face-to-face communicators. They like to look at each other and be, have great eye contact and see the body expression and have very in-depth conversation.
Doug Howard: Yeah. 360 degree communication
John Chao: That's right. Correct. Men are shoulder to shoulder conversations. Hey, let's go for a run. And it, that, that's the tendency of men. We don't necessarily have the, uh, it's, it's an underdevelopment of, uh, communication.
Really high masculine men. They're the generals. They're the people who have great communication. They're the visionaries. They know how to communicate extremely well.
Communication is a very strong masculine trait, and for men who are underdeveloped with that, then it causes there to be a lot of unspoken.
When was the last time you had a real big heart to heart with your buddy? Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't happen very often.
So then what happens when we're in an engineering workplace where it's very task oriented and not very relationship oriented, is then we come together with all the tasks things and then be like, Hey, you do your thing. You do. Okay. We're done. Good. Okay. And then just whatever.
Doug Howard: It's transitional.
John Chao: Yes, exactly. Um, and I would say if things were transactional, when we're talking about villages and other villages fighting, then that would not work at all. Men need to work together in a very communal, relational way that allows for there to be survival of the fittest group.
Um, and then they would perform extremely well.
Doug Howard: Yeah, I don't want to get into politics, so I'll just kind of say this with a, with a period at the end of it, but it's kind of what you see in politics today, at least in the US. Everyone's just trying to state their point, but not really engage, you know, it's just kinda throw throwing it out there and then not really like collaborating with it. And, and I can kind of see the correlation to that in the workplace. I'm an engineer and I'm on a team. I pitched my idea. Nobody liked it. Okay, fine. Forget you guys, I'm not gonna contribute to your thought and idea. I've seen this dynamic. I've never really thought of it this way until you said all this, but, as a manager, I could see people in a meeting. They pitched their idea, it wasn't well received by the group. Then all of a sudden they're checked out the rest of the meeting. Great. Now we don't have Tim's expertise for the rest of this conversation, and he could probably be the guy that helps us connect the dots that are missing on this idea we're working on.
John Chao: Totally. So then like, how can we help Tim? How can we help Tim also realize that it's not personal when the idea is shot down? But that person is still very relevant. Or how do we shoot down an idea, telling him what was really good about it and how we might be able to apply this to another thing that we're working on in the future. But right now, this is not the best thing, but we want his insights still on what's going on right now because he brings so much value to the table.
Building Your Confidence
Doug Howard: Tell me if you disagree with this, but if you're saying that you feel like, you know, there's kind of a, a, a lack or a lost masculinity as a collective by males and engineering, if I'm one of these engineers, what do I do about it? How do I change, what should I be fixing? What are things I should be looking at?
John Chao: A lot of things related to the masculine inner work is being able to look inside and to find out why am I so hurt when an idea that I contribute that gets shot down?
Why do I, why does imposter syndrome make me feel a certain way? Why do I care so much about the approval of other people? Do I really believe in myself? Do I realize that I bring value to the table at any table that I show up to? And if I don't know why, there are some stories that may have come up from the past that caused me to now think of the way that I think of myself in a certain sense.
And let's tackle that and figure out what that might be so that we come to our every day being able to bring our full selves to the table versus, uh, only a reserved part of ourselves because we have insecurities that we haven't really dealt with yet.
Doug Howard: It's funny you say that cuz like I said, I wasn't familiar with this concept, before, before meeting you. But almost to the day, two years ago, I was laid, laid off, or let go in a, in a company restructuring, budgetary cuts and whatnot. I didn't realize it in that moment, but it took me a while to kind of like, move on from that. I was attached to the job. I was attached to the company. I was attached to the team I built. it was part of my identity.
So when I left, I felt this huge sense of rejection. This, I wasn't wanted. And, you know, it was angry. That's how kind of was coming out in the front of mind. But, it wasn't like going away even as I left, months after being removed. So I wasn't coming at it from like the angle that you're talking about, but I had to basically sit with my thoughts and kind of figure out why is this bothering me?
And I did a lot of journaling. Okay, well I'm bothering me because I was let go. Okay, well why does that bother me? Why, why does it bother me that I was let go? Okay, then why, why, why? And just kind of continuing to dig, to figure out why is it holding you back? And you're saying this is a way, I'll be the devil's advocate here, the skeptical engineer. To me that sounds more feminine, you know, to like do that. Uh, so I guess, but you're saying that's a way to untap masculine energy?
John Chao: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think we're taught, we're really confused in society right now of what's masculine and what's feminine. Okay. And that's why we actually have a lot of women who are much more masculine and we have a lot of men who are much more feminine.
For a man to be able to look inward and find out what their purpose is, that's highly masculine. And so what happens is that, I would say for most engineers, or for most industries where you are a cog in the wheel, we take on other people's why. Our purpose is not our real purpose. Our purpose is attached to the purpose or the mission of the company.
And so for most engineers, they're just a cog in the wheel. They feel like a cog in the wheel. They start to operate like a cog in the wheel, and therefore the, in the masculinity that they have on the inside of knowing their true purpose, understanding what they're there for, basically gets shoved in the back and they're just there to show up because they have a steady paycheck. It's the security and the belongingness of whatever it is that causes there to not be any need for introspection and really have the ability to realize what their purpose is.
And so one of my favorite stories recently is, um, I think it was JFK or somebody who was visiting NASA at the time. They were touring, um, the NASA facility. And, uh, the guy I was speaking to, a janitor there and he was meeting everybody. He says, Hey, what do you do, um, here? And the janitor replied and says, I'm here to put a man on the moon. And he had so much mission in him that even though his, his part of it was just keeping things clean, he was so clear about what he was there for.
And so as an engineer, if you feel like your field is what your purpose is, it doesn't matter whether you work for this company or that company or that company cuz you're so clear about what your role on this earth is for. Therefore, if you get laid off, sucks to be that company, because they just lost a huge asset. You are so clear that you can sell your vision of who you are and why you're here to any company and you will be seen with a ton of value.
Leaders vs Followers
Doug Howard: I'm curious what you think about this then, John. So talking about purpose and absorbing someone else's purpose and not being clear on yours. I've worked with many engineers one-on-one as a mentor when I was a manager. And today as a consultant, I career coach, I help engineers with soft skills and leadership training. And one of the places I always start is with me trying to learn about them and, you know, what is your purpose? Why do you wake up in the morning? Where do you want your career to go? What do you do just for fun when, you know, not for practical, there's no practical benefit for it, there's no logical reason to do it, what are things you do just for fun, just because? And every engineer I talk to about that they don't know where to start. They're just like, what do you mean? Do something just for fun? And, you know? Yeah. Yeah. What do you do just when you wake up on Saturday and you have nowhere to be? And so I end up working with them to help figure out what is their purpose and whatnot as it's related to their career.
What's the correlation there? With that and the masculine energy? Do you feel like there's a correlation there?
John Chao: Yeah, so I would say feminine energy is, um, for lack of better words, those who are followers. And so leadership energy is masculine energy, following energy is feminine energy and that's very okay. I'm not saying that there's no such thing as women who have leadership cuz there are women who embody masculine energy. I'm just saying that the nature of energy is like that. And so for a lot of men, we have been brought up in the school system where there's a certain way to do math and you prove your math in a certain way and that's how you get grades in a certain way.
And there's a certain framework of how your teachers teach whatever their courses are. And so we've become followers our whole life of how to be in a system from when we were very young, all the way till getting a job. And then we get put into that system where the actual understanding of who we are and what we're here for and what our interests are is completely void because the feeling of belonging and the enjoyment of following gets nurtured in us for so long through all of these systems, from academia to the workplace that then there is no self-identity.
There is no time to build self-identity cuz you're so caught up in making sure that you are accelerating in the systems that you're in. I don't blame people for that. That's just a structure, especially engineering.
If you don't pass one of your courses, then you're gonna have to help back because the only way to move forward is all of your courses pass and then you can move on to the next year. So there's no time really to discover who you really are, because of the mission of trying to make sure you graduate and then get a job, and then it just propels until you're 60 and then you're upset because you now are irrelevant and you're yelling and all these different things and you haven't really figured out what your emotions are. And you go through midlife crisis and you buy a convertible and all this other stuff. It makes sense.
Doug Howard: I'll say, you know, this whole idea of the system, this is very fascinating stuff, John. A lot of engineers are probably not hearing this type of stuff, so I really appreciate you sharing this perspective.
I followed that trend. I went to public school, I went to college. I got a job. I did what you're supposed to do. I worked my way up. I worked very hard. I followed the companies, you know, missions and ideals. I kind of absorbed them as my own. And you're right, I never really thought about what do I really want in my life that whole time? What do I really want in my career? And it took an overnight, you know, jolt to my life, like getting let go, for me to actually just pause and think about these things. Cause I always had somewhere to be. I always had someone to answer to. I always had a project that was behind. I always had a person that needed my help.
So there was never time to, you know, think about what do I need? What do I want?
And then by the time I got home, that was the last thing I wanted to do. Cause I was tired and exhausted. I wanted to just turn my brain off.
I can see how I went through this too. I can see how all engineers do, you know, it's a high burnout job and you're, you're constantly expected to produce more and deliver more and, you know, be loyal to the company and all this. So, no, this is very fascinating. And now that I'm kind of understanding the problem more, I guess I wanna , I wanna soak up more from you, John.
What are things people can do to help with this? Getting in tune with your purpose and what you want? What are other things they can do?
John Chao: I'll just say it from this perspective, as engineers, your clients come to you for your expertise.
So I think there's already an understanding of how the relationship of that works. So if a, whoever's watching right now, if you feel like you're lacking in understanding of these things, go seek out somebody for their expertise cuz they spend the time working on this. They're not gonna know nearly as much about engineering as you, so you're definitely stronger there.
But there are people who've dedicated their time to really figure out what this masculinity thing is and go seek them out. Have a conversation with me. If you want go reach out to Doug and and about mentorship and go talk to the people who have taken the time to figure this out because they didn't take the time to figure out what you figured out.
But that's also why your clients pay you cuz you took the time to figure out what you figured. And so what is your money good for what? You're making a ton of money right now as an engineer, hopefully. And what is that good for? Use that money to invest in other parts of you that you don't have to spend time figuring out because you can pay somebody else who figured it out to walk you through it and expedite the time that it will take for you to figure all of these things out.
That is the nature and relationship of being in community. When we were more in tribes before, there were specialists in different things and everybody went to that person to learn and went to another person to learn and to another person to learn. So the solution really is get rid of this idea of needing to drink beer and whatever during the weekends and watch football and, and waste your time that way to relax.
The real way that you're gonna be invigorated. I will tell you this, I started working with, um, a, a, a business partner in this field, and he's much more leading than I am in this. I'm playing the support figure, but I've been so much in my purpose that for the last two weeks, my body just wouldn't let me sleep in.
I would get up at 5:30 in the morning before my alarm rings. I'd be upset. I try to sleep more, but I can't. I get myself out of bed and my mind's kinda like, this needs to be done and that needs to be done. And I'm so much in my purpose and I have so much energy and I'm so much in my purpose that I have no desire to do the things that waste my time that I'm just typically would do before.
And so my productivity is way higher because I'm living in my purpose. And so instead of being like, oh, let me drink more coffee. I'm like doing overtime, I'm feeling burnt out. There's no need for that. We feel burnt out when we're not clear about our purpose. We feel burnt out when we're not feeling like we're doing something that's important.
But if we really start to do the work, then we'll see ourselves much more clearly and we'll either get out of a job that we don't feel like we're supposed to be in or get out of a company that we're not supposed to be in and work for another thing that's much more in alignment and be in our purpose when we're in congruency.
Then that way so much energy comes out of us. So much productivity comes out, so much creativity comes out. Then we become men who are living in our purpose versus men who are just playing the role to get a paycheck so that we can pay for vacation and the stuff that we feel like we need to do so that we can look like we belong in an upper echelon society and all this other garbage.
Escaping Your Comfort Zone
Doug Howard: Yeah. Status things. Material status. Possessions. So I'm hearing a lot of overlap with comfort zone there, you're staying in your comfort zone. Going home on the weekend and just having beers watching the tv, you know, and not really like taking that time to figure yourself out?
I guess, are you saying there's a relationship between, you know, your comfort zone and your being in touch with your masculine energy or, or just being in touch with yourself? Cause I mean, we're getting a little bit, we're talking about masculine energy, but we're kinda just talking about being self-aware too.
John Chao: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, a hundred percent. Doing scary things is so important for us in our development. And so this is also where being around a group of men usually allows us to uplevel ourselves because constantly people are upleveling themselves and we feel like we don't want to be the weakest chain in the link. So we uplevel ourselves.
So if you're not in the physical shape that you would like to be, that's a comfort zone issue. If you're not in the intellectual space you like to be, that's a comfort zone issue. If you're not doing hard things to scare you, then that's a comfort zone thing.
Why do we lack confidence when we are trying to speak up in a meeting? It's because we're not doing scary things to prove to ourselves every day that we are worthy of doing scary things, that we can do hard stuff. The confidence issue comes from our relationship with ourselves, not because other people aren't interested in hearing our opinion. Other people not being interested in hearing our opinion, that's irrelevant.
If we feel like we have something to say, then we will be the ones who speak up. It's no different than a guy who doesn't have the confidence to walk up to a girl because he feels like he needs to do this, this, and this in order to be able to first be attractive. No. If he believes that he's a really decent guy, that's what girls look at. That's what women look at. Women first, when you go up to speak to them, their bullshit detector is detecting whether you believe that you are a really good guy or not. Other than that, all the other things are kind of irrelevant.
And so where does confidence come from? Confidence comes from a really, really good relationship with ourselves, where we believe that we have so much value and worth that then in any given situation, we're able to speak up.
We're able to be our fullest self because we've done the work to be in a good relationship with ourselves.
Doug Howard: As you're saying that, it almost is sounding like, going outside of your comfort zone or being comfortable with going outside of your comfort zone is almost like a muscle to develop. If you're not comfortable with it right now, maybe you start with something small and then you just kinda get used to it and work your way up.
Is that a good approach to this if you're starting from scratch?
John Chao: Absolutely. Yeah. It's no different than engineering. You start with something, you start by designing one part of things and you get an expertise in that, and then you, you broaden out to design something a little bit bigger, and then you get expertise in that. You broaden out. It's the same thing.
So what is it that you're uncomfortable with? So I'll give you an example. I was just telling Doug that I just finished a five day water fast and the idea of not eating for five days is very uncomfortable. But I also know that I have a unhealthy relationship with stress eating and emotional eating, and I don't want to be that person with that character issue.
So I felt like I needed to do a fast in order for me to really examine myself. And on day four, the fast, I was talking to a coach of mine and I said, it's really weird because my body's not hungry at all, but my mind wants food.
Doug Howard: Hmm. Interesting.
John Chao: So I can tell that my mind is full of shit because, uh, my body doesn't need, my body's in full ketosis.
I'm not hungry, I'm not feeling hungry. But I miss the taste of food. I miss the smell of food. I miss the feeling of eating. My mind is telling me that I want to eat. Even though my body is fine. So even things like that is so important for us to really examine ourselves and know ourselves better by doing scary things.
I had some friends who ran marathons recently without any training and they were totally fine. And one would think, oh, I'm not a runner. I need to train this and that.
Doug Howard: As former athlete, I'm hearing this like, whoa, wow.
John Chao: It's incredible. There's five guys that all ran a marathon together. It was awesome.
Some of them ran it in four hours, some of them ran it in two, two and a half hours. Like whatever it is, they're all in different shapes, um, or in different physical conditions. But they just did something hard and after doing something hard, they're like, wow, what can I not do now? So one of the guys, he landed three sales.
Like the way that we come across when we believe in ourselves is just so different. That comes by getting out of our comfort zone and doing hard things and telling ourselves that we're way more capable than we realized.
Following Your Curiosity and Intuition
Doug Howard: If you're watching this now and if you struggle with going outside of your comfort zone, then you'll want to check out, I did a two-part episode series on going outside of your comfort zone. And I'll include the links to those episodes below if you want to check those out.
Before I forget, John, um, this, I feel like we can talk all day and I'd love to, maybe we'll do this again on another topic, or, or we'll just continue this one, depending on how many people watch this or if they have questions about anything.
But, uh, how can people learn more about you? What are ways for people to get in touch with you, John?
John Chao: So I, my, um, personal brand is called The John Collective. That's my website, the john collective.com. That's also where you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn. LinkedIn is mostly where I'm at right now, these days, um, just because I feel like that's my people and I can really talk about the things that I really want to talk about. Whereas Instagram is much more of a visual platform. Um, but everything that I'm doing is under, um, a, a masculinity, um, I would say movement called The Path. So go to the-path.com. And there you can find my coach Alan Howard. And I'm now working with him coaching other men alongside him because we're seeing the need for men to really be able to come into their masculinity for themselves, but also for society in general.
And we've all really been brought up much more like sheep and is very, very harmful and sad to see how many men are lonely, how many men are in their insecurities, how many men are even the suicide rate. So many different things. Men are much more affected by all of this than women really are because women for the most part, feminine energy is very comfortable with following that is what their disposition is. But men are not. So we have a lot of men who are very lost. We have a lot of men who don't know what their purpose is, and they don't really know why they even need to still be alive, which is very, very sad.
We're here to help men discover what their purpose is, live into their purpose, explore their masculinity, excavate all the excuses and conditioning that have come to cover our masculinity so that we can show our fullest self. And, um, it's very exciting. It's a lot of fun. I've seen a lot of men have transformations and really find themselves, and every guy in there is different and every guy is, uh, operates differently. They think differently. Some guys are very musical and other guys are very strategic and other guys are very into dabbling with tinkering with things. And like, that's wonderful. All men are meant to be different. This isn't to try to reprogram you into one kind of person. It's much more for you to be around other men who are willing to challenge their self-identity and find themselves.
Doug Howard: This is very fascinating and honestly, very eye-opening. These are things that I never really thought about or were aware of. I've never really, you know, like questioned, you know, like my masculine energy or anything like that, you know, I was a college football player and whatnot. I'm a fairly large guy. But, um, no, you've given me a lot of perspective is the key word with you as a perspective coach. A lot of perspective and just reflecting on my past and, and, and realizing like, okay, yeah, I guess I could see how I've fallen into these situations and by luck of circumstances for me, like I was kind of forced into awakening and, and, and kind of seeing these things.
But a lot of people don't get that jolt. I appreciate you sharing all this, John, Before we go, is there one last piece of advice or one extra piece of advice you have for anyone who's watched this episode right now, this interview and just feels like, yeah, I feel like I'm struggling with this, but I, you know, I don't know where to start, you know, is there a, a tip and advice, a book?
Is there, you know, um, besides reaching out to you, is there, is there, what's, what's the best piece of advice for someone who doesn't know where to start?
John Chao: I would say cultivate that feeling of your intuition. And a lot of times we get feelings for things, but then we talk ourselves out of things. And that's also a really big issue with our masculinity.
When your masculine intuition tells you that you really want to pursue something and look into something, then actually follow your curiosity. Follow the rabbit hole, see how far it can take you, versus being like, oh, I don't really have time for this. There's gonna be things that will talk you out of this curiosity or this investigation.
Um, so I would say there are a couple of people who, who are really great to follow. Ed Mylett is one of them. I listen to his podcast all the time and he's a, a very masculine dude, but also very much in his purpose. And I just want you guys to explore, cuz there's a lot of people who talk about masculine stuff, but they really come from a very feminine side because we've all been so conditioned to have feminine qualities in us from being followers our whole life.
And so there are really only a few people that I feel like has the healthy perspective on masculinity. Same thing with my coach Alan Howard. Go look him up. He's a howy, h o w y on Instagram and follow some things that are, yeah. Um, right. Very good. Last name, actually. I wonder if you guys are, uh, related. We'll find out after. We'll talk about it after.
The things that some of these people are saying, follow your intuition. If something doesn't feel right and you'll feel like you're following back into that sheep mode again, then challenge that. So I would say my final piece of advice would be when you feel like you're in, in comfort mode or in sheep mode, like realize that. Snap yourself out of it and realize, start to think about why that you're so comfortable being in that way and getting used to the discomfort is how all great men are created. And do we want to have greatness, uh, within us, or do we just want to be another cog in the wheel? And I really believe deep inside all of you who are watching right now and listening, um, have a desire for greatness or else you don't care about learning and improving yourselves. You wanna leave a legacy somewhere. That is how we are born as men. And I encourage you to explore that more.
Doug Howard: Well, thank you John, that, that's really helpful. And that's just really eye-opening. This is powerful, honestly, I'm sitting here, I I feel like I've been really quiet this whole time cause I'm just sitting here absorbing what you're saying and wow, this is, this is interesting. I've never thought of things this way. So I, I appreciate you taking the time to, to share these insights with everyone, John. And, uh, if anyone's watching this and is wants to learn more, I encourage you to go reach out to John.
He's a wealth of knowledge on this and many things. Check out his podcast, check out his website, check out him on LinkedIn. Uh, he's a great resource. And that's how we got connected. I started seeing his posts and just, who is this guy? He's talking about some interesting stuff that wasn't on my radar, and I better get in touch with him.
John Chao: I, I would also say that like, you don't need to agree with me. Have comments in the, if you don't feel like what I'm saying you're in alignment with, make a comment on this video and we'll look at the comments and we can come back and have a conversation about it. This isn't about having a one way dialogue of me just shitting on a couple of things.
It's us just really exploring what all of this is because we have your best interest in mind. I have my, I have your best interest in mind, Doug, and as men, if we really are collaborative versus competitive, then we'll get so much further with, um, with everything. Uh, so this is really meant to be for a conversation and not just, um, for us to just tell you what's wrong with you. If you don't agree, great. Write questions in the comments, then we'll address them later.
Doug Howard: That's probably a good way to close this out. Uh, I, I appreciate you saying that. Uh, you know, if you have questions on anything we talked about, if you have disagreements, you know, bring 'em up in the comments and if, and if there's other topics related this as well that you're curious about learning more about bringing up in the comments. Anything's fair game, cause I'm with you John. It's all about starting the dialogue and having the conversation going versus being in silos like you said. Maybe someone will bring up something that challenges your thought on this or my thought on this and, and push it further. Anything else you wanna say before we go, John?
John Chao: No, I'm just really grateful for having me on and clearly everybody can tell that we can talk for a long time, so I'm glad to wrap things up here, but thanks for having me on.
Doug Howard: No, thank you for being here. All right, well everyone, thanks for watching. Don't forget to check out those episodes on going outside of your comfort zone if you feel like you're struggling with that.
John Chao: If you like this video, click subscribe to Doug's channel and like the video below.
Doug Howard: Thank you, John. Thank you. All right, everyone take care.
