How to Apply Up for a Position One Level Higher in Engineering and Tech (Part 1 of 2)
How do you apply up when you're job seeking?
if you're an individual contributor, how do you apply for your first management role?
And if you're in an engineering manager role, how do you go from that to director without having that experience?
To guide us through this process, I have a very special guest with us here today,
we have Nader Mowlaee, and he's an engineering career coach, specializING in helping engineers career climb through their resume strategies, interviewing strategies, and their LinkedIn profile.
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Doug Howard: So I can't do him justice, so I wanna have Nader introduce himself. So Nader, why don't you just tell us a little bit who you are and how you help people?
How Nader's engineering background helped him as a recruiter
Nader Mowlaee: Of course. First of all, thank you so much, Doug, for having me on your show here. A pleasure to be here. I've always enjoyed our conversations in the past.
Looking forward to working with you more, collaboratively in the future. Good to be here and good to be in front of your audience. My goal today is to help them, as best as I can, to go from where they are in their career to where they need to be, whether they're an individual contributor to a manager or a manager to a director and high up.
Before we get into where I come from, In a nutshell, you know, I grew up in a family of engineers, uh, was destined to be an engineer, you know, grew up around one, was trained and, you know, was basic, basically molded by an engineer.
It was just like in my blood, right? Not to brag, but hey, you know, finally got, you know, graduated high school, went to engineering school, uh, studied electronics engineering. Graduated with a bachelor's degree, and wanted to get right into the job market.
My luck at the time, I graduated, uh, basically at the end of 2007, early 2008, and faced the last recession, which is one of the top, top points why I relate to what individuals out there, engineers that there are dealing with the job market right now, how it feels and what's causing in their careers.
So I went through all those, you know, patterns and I was, I was impacted by a lot of those challenges. I really wanted to utilize, my, my education and my studies to get into robotics, automation, manufacturing, ideally at the automotive sector. That was extremely difficult for me. So, long story short, had to take a job in the telecommunications sector for a couple of years, and I got into, uh, information technology, sales and solutions, uh, architecture for a year until end of 2010.
I started job searching again, but I realized that I haven't really done any electrical engineering, electrical design work, any hardware programming for three years. That was a big blow to my gut. I went to this, uh, you know, recruiting company. For the first time, I figured out there are companies that can actually help you get jobs.
That was fascinating. It was a great idea. I went there and, you know, I went to a few interviews and yeah, just realized that it's been too long that I haven't done the work that I had studied in school. It was really challenging, but one thing led to another, call it my luck, call it chance or fate.
I think it was fate that, uh, that recruiting company actually asked me to join them as a, as an engineer recruiter to help them, collect talent and interview them and qualify them. This is a massive company at the time, you know, it was the second largest global recruiting firm in the world.
I got amazing training. I gave a lot back to, I was the only engineer in the office. Like in, long story short, not to brag, but within the two years that I was there, I was their top, uh, recruiter in the office actually in like East Central Canada within a few different industries within engineering.
I guess I heard the call. I, I heard my calling and just like left and started my own business, you know, six months later. So from 2012, uh, after leaving the corporate recruitment world till 2020, right before the pandemic, I continued recruiting in Canada, you know, got married, moved to the US, continued the same thing in the US in California.
When the pandemic happened, I stopped recruiting so I can full-time pursue my passion, which was in coaching engineers and just helping them with the topics that we're gonna discuss today. That's where my heart is career skills development and also, you know, life skills development, which is the foundational level of success for, for all engineers out there.
Doug Howard: That's a great introduction that, cuz that really, there's a lot to unpack there. Before we move forward, I have tons of questions honestly, but I'll, I'll keep it focused and concise. First question is, you know, when you were in recruiting, when you were working at that, that large firm for two years? Do you feel like engineering, your engineering background, you know, your training, your, your engineering logic, do you feel like that helped you as a recruiter? Did it give you any advantages over the people that didn't have that background?
Nader Mowlaee: It was the primary leading advantage for me, and for me, it became like other people's lack of technical knowledge. Although at the time it wasn't fair for me to expect them to have the same knowledge as I did, and I only had a bachelor's degree. It wasn't like I was a PhD, but that, that became like a frustrating point for me, you know? Like more than half the times they didn't understand what they're talking about, you know?
So I had to explain things to people that were more senior than me. I had to explain things to account managers, to account executives, and they're piggybacking on me. They were leaning on me. So from the first few months, I was going into side rooms and presenting stuff to them.
Doug: Wow.
How Nader got into Career Coaching for Engineers and Technologists
Nader Mowlaee: That's when I started coaching. You know, I start coaching other engineers. . Showing them that, if you go into a meeting at Magna Automate, you know, the Magna as it was the first, you know, first level integrator, tier one integrator for Ford. This is back in Ontario, in Canada. This is the project that's coming up. This is what they're actually developing. This is a sub-assembly. These are the components. They're looking for these mechanical engineers. They're probably gonna need drafters, they're gonna need technicians. So I would map everything out for them.
Just kind of like, I hate to say effortless because again, I don't want to brag or sound egotistical, but like these are the things that were coming to me naturally. Based on what I had studied. I designed robotics arms in the past, again, I grew up around my dad. I've been in so many factories, so many, you know, production.
Doug Howard: It's in the blood. It's in the blood.
Nader Mowlaee: I knew this stuff is like, you know what you're talking about. So, then I would go to plant visits. I would tour companies. I, I would be the person taking notes, you know, so I'm this young twenty,
Doug Howard: That's awesome.
Nader Mowlaee: Five year old going out with like 50 year old account managers who have been doing that for 20, 30 years. I'm the one taking notes and I'm mapping things out. So I was getting cues and signs and at the time I was too young. So getting a lot of frustration built up in me and, you know, I really wanted to be an account manager, but I wasn't qualified for it, you know?
All that led to my success and my ability to help other people becoming a corporate trainer. I became the LinkedIn trainer for the company and all that stuff. My passion and my, my skills in coaching just kind of like, came into the picture and all that led together gave me the confidence that I needed to pursue entrepreneurship in, you know, in a couple of years.
Doug Howard: I, I think what I find most interesting as I've gotten to know you is that, you know, and then you hit it on the head when you just described your experience here a few moments ago, you were doing this coaching, just to put this in perspective for our audience, this is before coaching was like a household thing, you know, like in the last few years, like everyone's a coach.
There's a coach that's gonna teach you how to master your gaming skills in a specific game. Like there's so many niche coaches out there, and you were doing this before this was a thing. You were doing this before everyone had like eight social media platforms that they were all glued to and it was a different world back then.
I guess I'm just curious, did you see this as a booming thing back then? Did you see this as an opportunity to help people? Like what, what compelled you to really go down this?
Nader Mowlaee: Helping people on coaching is definitely, is something I've been doing like since I was 15 years old.
So I grew up, I grew up practicing martial arts since I was like six years old. I started karate, then I got into kickboxing, so basically I got my, my karate black belt. I was like 12. And then with that I went to kickboxing and got a black belt in kickboxing at 15. So with that, I was already like an assistant instructor, coaching and like training people in class, since I was 15, 16, 17, 18. So I was already a, a coach, you know, again, assistant instructor. I was leading classes in sports but then I played rugby, I got into boxing, I got back into kickboxing and mu Thai.
So naturally with all those on the sports side of things, I was, I was helping people. You get so such, it's such a good feeling, you know, when you help someone. So that I already had just wanted to help people, but yeah, no, absolutely not. I did not see coaching as a career.
When I graduated iPhone one just got released, like Steve Jobs was still alive, same, who worked same time, you know what I mean? So it was like, exactly. You and I graduated pretty much at the same year, same time. So when I worked in telecom, the first product that I was supporting was the first iPhone.
So it's like Facebook just released, you know, it's like, these are brand new things. So yeah, there was no social media. I didn't grow up really with that, in that realm, uh, or having smartphones and things like that. Uh, coaching for me was corporate coaching.
I experienced it in the corporate world, you know, in 2008, 9 and 10. So when I was in it, our corporate coach, we actually had a corporate coach, Jody. So Jody was the person that I really looked up to, you know, and helped me a lot and he just really helped me understand who I am so beyond helping me develop sales skills and communication skills and presentation skills, he just helped me understand, you can actually help people and develop additional skills as a trainer, as a mentor, as a leader. That's when I started going to all these events and, you know, shows and just putting myself out there. I got into reading a lot, journaling and that's naturally my journey started there.
When I got into recruiting, it was like, I was already kind of like prepared for it. I had enough training and exposure that gave me adequate confidence to step into those shoes. And second, you know, guys, You don't know what this company does. You're telling me you need a, you know, senior electronics engineer with experience in embedded hardware skills. You know this stuff, but do you actually know what you're talking about? I was like, you don't. Lemme tell you. So ultimately I became the guy in that office that got the hardest position. So we used to call 'em like hard to fill positions. Very senior roles, leadership roles, highly advanced technologies, very scarce skill sets that even I had to go and figure out. Well like this equipment I don't know what it is. Like ain't nobody gonna figure out what this is. I need to go and figure it out. Right. So that was the kick I got out of it. I'm like, I'm actually learning new engineering stuff, you know? Like this massive broadcasting equipment, which is being sold to all these defense companies.
Here's a company, Harris, Harris Technologies, you know, L2 technologies. They make all these broadcasting communication equipment. The project's being subcontracted to us. This is gonna be a DOD contract. I'm just getting goosebumps telling this right now. I know this, like, super cool.
I'm like, they use this for planes to communicate with each other. I was like, holy... you know?
Doug Howard: Yeah. The engine nerd in you comes out. Right?
Nader Mowlaee: That's the nerd in me. It's like, give me all these projects. That's been my journey since then up until today. One of the things I do brag about is like, I can tell you what every engineer does out there in every industry, in every company. You tell me a title, I'll verbalize the job description. I'll describe what happens in a normal day in their life. And that's 12 years of, you know, recruiting and coaching and working with them face to face. That is a bragging right. You know? Cause I can, I can, I cannot build that for you, but I can tell you how it's built.
Doug Howard: How does that help you as a career coach?
Nader Mowlaee: The level of clarity that, that separates me from my competitors. Again, I cannot do that for you, but I can tell you how it's done. I can give you examples of people who have successfully done it. I can tell you why someone has failed at doing that.
I've coached nearly a thousand people. So I think I've had over the last 12 years, like I'm at nine hundred and seven, nine hundred eight. Wow. Just over 900 clients. These are all face-to-face clients, right? So a lot of interaction like this. But I've probably interviewed like 5,000 people.
Doug Howard: Wow.
Nader Mowlaee: Because you speak with and interview a lot more engineers than you actually, those who hire you, pay you money and you actually coach them, you know? I only work with engineers.
Doug Howard: Proof speaks for itself.
Nader Mowlaee: Yeah. I let the testimonials and stuff talk about, the level of work that I do. I'm very, very niche or very, I'm very specific.
The Importance of Personal Branding for Job Seekers
Doug Howard: Everyone's here cuz they want to hear about jumping levels, in job searching. And before we get into that, I just wanna hear, in a nutshell, how do you help people, as a career coach? Maybe that ties into what you're gonna show us here, but I'm just curious like, you know, coaching is like a black box to a lot of engineers.
I'm a leadership coach for engineers and a lot of times I'm meeting with people who, they're like, what's a coach? Why, why do I need a coach? How, what, how is that different than training and things like that. So I guess could you just kind of shed some light, what is a engineer career coach?
Nader Mowlaee: Great questions. Again. The career coach is, has become a very, uh, diluted, uh, title, you know, but I'll, I'll start by saying that, there's a lot of different types of coaches. There are different phases in a person's career development life cycle that an individual coach can directly impact or influence.
In this particular case, like in our case, my coaching stops where yours start, you know? So it's like we go back to back cuz I don't do the on-the-job leadership and additional professional development, which you do.
I don't even call myself an engineer. I have a bachelor's in engineering, but I'm not, you know. You have proven it, you've done it, you got into the management level, you've got your PE license, you have proven yourself to be a successful engineering leader. I have not. I made a career change and I've, I've helped other people in these three areas and these are the three areas that I help 'em with.
Starts with personal branding. There's a prerequisite to that, which is goal setting, building your vision and having macrovision and micro goals based on those goals, we reverse engineer back to where you are right now, so we know where you wanna be. We have those coordinates that we can put into your career gps. We come back to where you are and we need to develop a brand around that.
What does that mean? It's primarily your career documents, which is your resume cover letter and your LinkedIn profile, which is your digital resume. So writing all that content, the keyword optimization of that, storytelling. How do we make sure we come across, how do we grab someone's attention and make sure, hold that intention?
We make them interested in you. Encourage 'em to take action on you. That's the primary stage, personal branding.
Doug Howard: A lot of influence I guess going on here. Right. There's a lot of, I'm guessing with like job seeking, human psychology, kind of how do you get inside the mind of the company?
Is that kind of what, what you're talking about?
How to Target The Right Companies to Apply To
Nader Mowlaee: Absolutely. Absolutely. So when it comes to goal setting, I would literally pick the companies we're going after, because as we go to the second stage, which is job searching, which is highly targeted, we have already defined who our targets are.
We know exactly which companies we're going after. I normally pick 20 companies. That's more than enough often. So when we develop a brand around those companies or that are very similar in terms of the product services and solutions, we go into stage number two, which is job searching. There's 10 different ways you can job search.
We basically do two things. We develop our brand online, so now we actually start using LinkedIn to market ourselves, put ourselves out there, put content out there so we can attract and absorb people's attention. Secondly, we proactively reach out, so we directly network to connect with hiring managers and recruiters inside those companies, inside those 20 companies.
And that's that. In a nutshell that's it. That's our job search strategy. It's very effective among the, pretty much the most effective is to go directly to the source, you know?
Doug Howard: As a former hiring manager, I worked as a supervisor, a team leader, a manager, and a director in, in all those roles.
Earlier in my hiring manager career, it was very traditional. People apply for the job, you review their resumes, the hiring manager's actually reviewing them, and you're deciding, and you can kind of read in between the lines on a resume, okay, this person doesn't have all the, quite the same stuff, but I still think they're worth a shot.
It was still kind of a human touch element to it. And from what I've found, my company grew very big, the company and it was very corporate and global by the time I left. So many things slipped through the cracks. So many things went through so many hands.
It was very dehumanized. There was two or three people that saw resumes for the positions I was hiring before I even saw them. So like, God only knows how many candidates that were qualified, didn't even reach my desk. These people that were before me in the line, they were not even based in the same city as me. They were HR clericals, nothing against that, but like, you know, they didn't know what went into the unique niche engineering operations in my company in Milwaukee and Wisconsin, when they're based wherever. I'd never even met these people.
I just think it's so relevant cuz a lot of job seekers are really frustrated right now. And I don't get into job seeking, but I do have like, experience in the backside. There was a a time where we had a position opened and I knew a person that was the perfect fit for this. He had used to work for us and, uh, he told me he was looking. So I'm like, all right, let's create an opening. Let's get him back in here. I was so disappointed when he left three years prior. So it was basically a formality. Now some job seekers that might not like hearing that, but this was an opening created because I knew this person was available and he could get right up to speed.
I gave him the inside track when we opened it. I was on board with this. My boss was on board with it, the other department managers were on board with it. So it wasn't like any politics at all. I gave him the headstart. I gave him a link to apply online and his resume never reached me and he never got contacted.
He didn't like lazily do it, you know, he put a real resume together. He submitted it and he was qualified. He worked at our company like years prior. He worked in a role for four years there and the resume never even reached me. I asked him, did you apply?
And then he reapplied it still never reached me. This got dragged out so long because of the bureaucracy. Like he ended up not coming to work with us cuz he was just so ticked off about this and he ended up working somewhere else and it's just like, this is kinda what it's become.
Nader Mowlaee: It just keeps getting worse and worse. And even the pandemic made, brought in a lot more politics and, you know, the bureaucracy is definitely there and it's just a conversation in hr. It's now so diluted.
Doug Howard: I look at it like, the job should go to the best person and the most qualified person and, the right fit person. What really jumps out at me as we're talking about this though, is, and I'll speak for the companies I've worked for too, firsthand behind the scenes, co companies just, uh, have really convoluted the hiring process all around.
They're muddying it up. They don't have the right people behind the scenes to recognize the talent, to actually intake all the applications that are coming in to define their roles clearly. There's so many times people think they're applying for this job and then when they get the role, they're like, wait, this is not the job I signed up for. Like, it's a complete different thing from what the job description said.
I think that's just kind of the real problem is the onboarding and hiring process at company is just, has really gotten sloppy, to say the least and to put it nicely. So I guess just to kind of come talk, circle around to that, you know, I feel like that's a big part of how you help engineers. I know a lot of job seekers don't know how to get their resume seen. They don't know how to get that interview.
Nader Mowlaee: It really starts with helping the, with and this is where I get into the life coaching. The project that I'm launching soon, you know, I started with the pandemic and it was a lot of mindset and mental health and self-talk and spirituality.
I've been working at home since 2014. I've been isolated and in a pandemic. I've been locked at home for a long time. So when 2020 happened, I'm like, I already know how it is. So I noticed that I'm strong at this stuff, let me help people just not get depressed and overcome anxiety.
But another part of it is just like, do you even know who you are? You want a job. I talked to someone yesterday, senior materials engineer at Apple, and she wanted to leave Apple for two reasons that were just legitimate, and was telling her, I know this is a consultation call, but I have to coach you on this cuz what you're, what what you're just telling me is just like, it's toxic.
You cannot, you cannot be saying this stuff. Yeah. These should not be the reasons why you look for another job. I know you're frustrated, but you're letting your frustration and this stuff, these two reasons to get the best of you. So you're gonna leave Apple for those reasons?
Doug Howard: I, I bet a lot of people listening can relate to that too. If you heard yourself say some of the things you say when you're frustrated at a job, like you'd be like, who is that? I, I wouldn't, but it's like, you don't realize what you're, you know, you're so stressed out and you're so burnt out from these things. It makes you do a lot of uncharacteristic things and sometimes it leads to very costly consequences.
Nader Mowlaee: It, it almost always is. This person was like, well, I wouldn't say that stuff in an interview. I'm like, I'm sorry, but of course you would. You cannot trick me. Like I, I've had 3000 times, I know I put you on the spot and you have to defend yourself and I'm sorry for that, but like, I had to put the fire out. Some of that stuff is triggering for me cuz I see you're literally falling off a cliff. I literally have to save you cuz I don't know if I have this conversation if you're gonna quit your job at Apple tomorrow, and that would be a disaster. That would be on my conscience. If you come back and say, you know what, guess what? I, I quit. I was like, but why you know, everyone would wanna get into Apple and they would love to have your multiple six figure job. Why would you leave? Let's do other things. Let's talk to Doug. That would be a good client for you. You know?
Doug Howard: Thank you. Thank you. I do get into that too, cuz self-control and self-awareness is key. Just understanding your emotional triggers and how to not react. They don't learn these skills. They don't come natural to us and they don't teach these skills in school. But there is intentional ways to learn it.
Nader Mowlaee: I agree. A thousand percent.
Doug Howard: I just think your background is so interesting, and I want to make sure that our audience, understands, your background and your credibility and why you're so good at what you do and how you help engineers.
With all that context in mind, you know, why don't we dive into just some tactical advice here. How do you apply for your first leadership position if you don't have that background? How do you go from manager to director ? How do you talk about that in your resumes and whatnot? Do you wanna walk us through some real tangible tips here for people?
Recession Proof Job Search Strategies
Nader Mowlaee: Absolutely. I've titled this presentation, Recession Proof Job Search Strategies, um, because again, being in this economic time, being in a tough job market, whether you are or you're not, you still need to stand out.
You still need to have the right mindset. You still need to improve your communication skills, especially as an engineer who, you know, one of the, one of the things, uh, we've got for ourselves is that, you know, hey, we, we are more technical, we're more introverted, just like I am.
I had spent years improving my communication skills, on average communication skills may not be our top skill, you know, so we need to improve it. These are the gaps that I've seen. These are the common challenges that I've had that I've helped other people overcome as well. Mindset, communication, and ultimately competition.
As time evolves and as we go to more recessions, as there's more AI solutions, as, as just we evolve as a species and as the job market grows, uh, there's gonna be more competition. So we need to limit that competition stand out based on how we job search and what kind of strategies and tactics we employ.
So ultimately that's what we're gonna cover today, starting with the mindset. Now, uh, anyone who wants a copy of these slides, you definitely can. So I'll, I'll send it to, I'll send it to Doug, and it's a pdf you guys can basically grab a copy of it.
Doug Howard: Awesome.
Nader Mowlaee: I've already told you a little bit about me in the past, but in a nutshell, I'm very purpose driven. I'm very mission driven. I totally believe it is nothing greater than helping those in needs. The reason why I became a coach ultimately and decided to, to stop everything else and go all in is because, I wanted to be the person that I needed, when I was struggling as an engineer, when I was looking for an engineering job, and my dad was on my case and I didn't, you know, I didn't get an engineering job out of school and, disappointed him.
It's like that was psychological pressure. It literally took me to mental depression. I grew up seeing myself working as an engineer. It didn't happen. So I really wished, later on in my life, I really wish I had an engineering coach. I had a career coach.
I had someone that helped me do the things that I help with people right now. I saw that need, I see that need, and that's my purpose. And ultimately, last 10, 10 plus years, it's always been a matter of helping other engineers maintain their mindset and overcome the struggles on a mental, spiritual side, uh, psychological side, or the stress really, that are caused by, uh, job search failure and going through months of being unemployed.
Lack of income, losing their identity, being under pressure by their spouse. The way their kids look at them. I've heard those stories. I've literally sat down and listened to people, watch people cry in front of me and they bring tears to my eyes because I'm hearing these stories. I can relate to a lot of them.
So that's why I do what I do. Whether it is writing resumes, developing LinkedIn profiles, helping you figure out your identity, your goals, your vision, or help you perform better for job interviews.
We really want to talk about mindset. And the first mindset I actually want to talk to you about is the mindset of the employer, mindset of the recruiter or the person who's interviewing you.
Cuz when they go to that interview room, and that's where, rubber meets the road, so to speak, and things are really developing for the employer. They've done all the work, whether you came through a referral or through an online application, or someone, uh, put your resume in front of Doug's desk at the work, whatever it is.
Now you're sitting in the interview room and there are three different questions really in that person's mind that they wanna answer. And this dictates how the interview flows. Number one is, can you help us? Basically like, do you have the technical skills? Do you have the knowledge? Do you have enough experience to know what we do? What problems exist in this position, in this role? And can you help us overcome those problems? That's number one. But that's why a lot of the interviews start with like a technical questions, like going through your resume, making sure you have the knowledge, where'd you graduate from, what did you do in this job, in that job, in the other job, it's kind of like job related and skills related.
And then as they move on and they figure out, you know what, yeah, you got the knowledge and skills and experience. Good, let's move on.
So normally this is interview number two. They go into more, asking about, so why do you like this job? Why should we hire you? Why do you want to work for our company? Where do you see yourself short term, long term? This is where they're trying to figure out, do you care about us? Do you want to be here to collect a paycheck or do you want to be here because you see value in the product we're developing? Because, you know, you've used our solutions in the past because you understand the type of problems we're solving in the world and the impact we're creating. Do you know how we're changing people's lives? That's really the big picture talk, the conversation there. Do you understand our company's vision, mission, and core values? Do you understand your professional growth path in this job? Do you really care about it? Or are you here just like most people who interview, who just wanna get paid?
Fielding Behavioral Questioning During Your Interview
Nader Mowlaee: And as you continue to move on, maybe the end of the second interview, third, fourth interview, you get into the behavioral questions. This is where they're testing your personality, your character, are you honest? Do you have integrity? Are you adaptable? Are you gonna be a good fit into our company's culture? Are you gonna be able to fit into the team's dynamics? Is your personality aligned with the personality of other team members? Do you have similar backgrounds? Are you very different? Are you all of a certain age and I'm bringing this in because it, it makes a difference.
Whether you like it or not, ageism is true. Just don't talk about it in an HR room. But this is where I want you to guys, to hear, if everybody, his is 40 years old with two kids, and you come in as a 24 year old, it could be a 24 year old genius. It can be freaking Oppenheimer. I don't care. If you're just way too different from the team that we have here. You're not gonna get along. So the age thing could be a thing, could be like, we don't really trust you're gonna be here for a long time because you're just different. So the company decides the terms and conditions of them trusting you, and that's important, you know, it can get complicated. It can get long. And these are our long conversations. I would have in an interview practice session to give clarity and then confidence that the person's going through that interview.
For the sake of our time here, I'm gonna move on to the next slide that dictates the priority of the recruiting, the recruiter, the hiring manager, the employer is, do you have the skills? Are you passionate, enthusiastic, about the job of the company, the product solutions, the services, and ultimately, are you gonna fit into our company's culture and team dynamics?
Now, with that said, you might be sitting back and saying, now I understand the mindset of the employer. What should my mindset be? What should I focus on? What you should focus on are the things that you can control that cross the things that matter, the things that matter is directly related to the company in front of you.
This is where things you should focus on in this interview is gonna be different than things you're gonna focus on in the other interview. Not because you are different, you're the same. You have certain skill sets, you're a software engineer, mechanical engineer, civil engineer, structural engineer.
You do certain things. You gotta know who you are, what your brand is, what your top five skills and just keep them to your chest, those are yours. Go after organizations, companies, employers, that those skills matter to them.
It should be a small cross section. It's not that you cannot be taking that shotgun approach and go after every company out there, every engineering firm thinking that, yeah, I've got these skills and I can learn new skills, so they will hire me.
No, they won't. They're gonna be very picky and very specific.
Doug Howard: Well, and just to elaborate on this, I think this picture is worth a thousand words. I think what you're saying is, whatever that thing is in the cross hair or the overlap of the Venn diagram, like that needs to be what you're talking about.
That needs to be like your main message, that needs to be the identity you create with them. Don't water it down by talking about other things or presenting yourself in other areas. Talk about the things that you can do and you can control and that do matter to the company.
Or is that more or less what you're saying?
Nader Mowlaee: Absolutely is. Again, I'll give you an example of the current client that I have. She's a structural engineer. She's getting back to the workforce after two years. Took basically break during Covid, went back home and she's, she's back in the US right now in Columbus, Ohio.
Has a couple of years of experience. We started working three weeks together, went through the personal branding and all that. Started job searching two weeks ago. She just had three interviews, two different companies. What was the thing for her?
Again, this is where I had to influence her. So again, I had, not to dictate, this is where a coach comes in and says, you know what? I know you want to be a bridge designer, structural designer. I knew you've done a year of that and a year in sanitation systems, designing sanitation systems in LA.
But because of the two year break, they're not gonna put you in a designer right now. You need to work your way up to it. How do you work your way up to it?
Let's get into some engineering, consulting companies that do a lot of, building rehab, rehabilitation, building restoration type work. Like Bridge Rehab, bridge Restoration is huge. You guys know how terrible the infrastructure is that we know that a lot of those billion dollars that are going elsewhere should be invested in our own infrastructure, but let's not get into politics.
But with that said, there's a lot of bridges and buildings that need to be restored and rehabbed and, strengthened.
Doug Howard: That's a great insight. There's tons of opportunities there. Like you, you can fall into a job in that area.
Nader Mowlaee: But good luck looking for a company who's designing a new bridge.
We have bridges that are falling. Companies are not gonna be building new bridges.
Doug Howard: I think that's an awesome insight too, just to point out is that you're helping people see, okay, sure you want this job, but here's what your skills are and here's opportunities that you might not have considered. Here's opportunities that you are qualified for that you're not aware of. I think that's, that's awesome. We're engineers, we don't know the job market. That's not our job. We're not trained on how to like figure these things out and you shouldn't have to, but it's a complex job market to say the least. That's amazing insight that you helped that person with.
Creating Your Career Progression Path
Nader Mowlaee: It's about creating that career progression path. Your next company will not be your last company. Sometimes your expectations are just not even fair to you. It's not fair to the market because you wanted to go after structural design work for high-rises. I'm like, just drive around, find a high-rise. There's a job for you. How many high rises are being built? Where do you see foundation being laid? But all these other buildings that you're not paying attention to, they also need work. They also need all this stuff. It could be the structural side. Or it could be someone in a renewable energy sector as a mechanical engineer. It could be a chemical engineer. A Berkeley PhD that I'm working with right now who's looking for transitioning from consumer packaged goods to battery, renewable energy storage.
Okay, so why do you wanna go there? So these conversations you have to figure out exactly what are the skills you have? Those are things you can control and what matters are the problems you can solve with those skills. If you don't have the skills, then don't go after building new batteries.
Doug Howard: You've downplayed yourself, Nader, you're saying you're not an engineer, but you've taken an engineering approach to job seeking because you're clearly taking the most tactical and efficient approach to finding the right job.
If you're struggling, follow gravity. Follow the momentum. Where's the opportunity? You have these skills and I like what you said, it doesn't have to be your permanent job.
This is just either to get back on course or get back on route or build some skills you need for the next job. I think that's brilliant. Cause I think so many engineers, we're black and white. We just think of it like this or that. It's never, what's that gray area in between that I should be considering?
This is brilliant insight that I could see how you really help a lot of engineers get unstuck and get to the next level. I really appreciate you sharing all these insights on the show here.
Nader Mowlaee: It's never taking that least path of resistance, that's the opposite of what a coach, that's, that, that would be the opposite of what Doug and I, would do for you if you're considering having a coach, it's like we actually amplify your abilities. We actually want to take you to the next step while avoiding the unrealistic and delusional ideas.
Doug Howard: I like the way you said it better.
Nader Mowlaee: No, we're just saying the same thing but it's like, you want to work for Tesla. Why? Like, oh, this reason, that reason. They have nothing to do with Tesla. At least tell me you like cars? Please tell me you drive a Tesla. There has to be a reason and like what do you not like about it? Is the dashboard squeaking? Do you don't like the entertainment system? There has to be something.
So I do take an approach of very product specific. Having worked with so many engineers, I understand who they are and what they do. I actually help people get a job as headrest designers, like seat designers at Tesla, but guy does only the headrest, like where you put your head.
Doug Howard: That is super specific. Wow.
Nader Mowlaee: Are you thinking about it like that? Or, oh, I wanna take a bill of Tesla. It's like, no, you're not gonna be designing a Tesla, you're gonna be designing the door handle.
Doug Howard: It's funny you, it's funny you say that because I was just talking with someone the other day and they weren't ready to work with me in a leadership capacity cuz they're kind of at a crossroads in their career.
They're basically saying, I wanna work at the, and they kept listing fang companies, you know, I wanna work here, I wanna work here, but I don't have this experience in leadership and whatnot and I'm trying to go up and I'm just like, well you're probably not gonna get in there.
That's probably not the right path for you. You probably should be considering these other types of companies. But it's just funny cuz I just, I see so many engineers get stuck in this, like a name plate, the same as like just wanting to have the name brand shoes or something like that. Why do you really like that brand? It's about the right fit and that's what you're doing with the job. Don't get caught up in the name. Find the right fit for you. Find where you belong.
Nader Mowlaee: I know these companies, like the fang companies or the Tesla, I know these are like career makers. They look good on your resume. I hate that statement. Why do you want it? Well, it's gonna look good on my resume.
If you actually say that, anything like that in that category, those are deal breaker conversations. Cause they would stay away from you. But you gotta realize when you lost the interview, you know?
So a lot of interview practices I do, I'm like, that's it done. But don't ever, please don't ever say that again. So sometimes like brand people, I want this part to really hurt. Cuz then this is how you're gonna remember it. Sometimes coaching, you have to be very direct with that person, and realize, what your mindset is just completely wrong. You need to know that you missed the opportunity right now. And don't ever say this again.
Doug Howard: You're not doing anyone any favors by not telling 'em the feedback they need. You're all about transformation and getting them where they want to be and, and helping them see their blind spots.
So, no, I think that's great. I think we're all better off if we openly receive that feedback instead of get annoyed by it or hurt by it. It's about development. It's about moving forward.
Nader Mowlaee: Sure. Unfortunately most people don't welcome that type of feedback. It's on the coach to deliver it in a softer way. That's what makes, Doug's and my job difficult.
So sometimes again, I interrupt people and I tell them, I'm like, I'm, I will interrupt you if you say something wrong. Because that moment, that's gonna be the trigger that's gonna allow you to remember that you're subconscious.
Otherwise, like the best analogy you use with just the brand, you want something, you're saying things to say it because it makes you feel good and you're looking at things one sidedly and you just really doesn't matter. Like the employer doesn't care about that. As a matter of fact, they don't like hearing that stuff.
Doug Howard: Hey there. If you're finding these insights helpful, make sure you watch part two of my interview with Nader because that's where he is gonna cover how to build your resume and how to deliver the perfect interview. And he's also gonna explain how to optimize your LinkedIn profile and use LinkedIn DMing to create opportunities through cold networking.
You don't wanna miss these tips.
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